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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject: Colossals - Doom and gloom rampant speculations
 Posted: Feb 08, 2012 - 08:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
Status: Offline
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With the announcment of Colossals the interwebs went berzerk with doom, gloom and excitment all around, so I decided to sit down and analyze methodically the possible combos and casters that would work with colossal models, based on the confirmed rumors from Templecon, which are: They will be battlegroup models but not Warjacks.
Apparently clossals work the same as warjacks and are part of battlegroups, but they aren't actually Warjack type models, rather Colossal type, meaning they don't count for warjack allocation points (always cost full points) and can't be affected by warjack specific spells/buffs (that would include eButcher's Rage drives and Quire songs), but can be repaired by mechanics (like battle engines).
So the main question is: Will colossals be overpowered and/or autoincludes in competitive lists?
Short answer: No, not really.
Long answer: No because...
1. If they don't benefit from the warcaster Warjack allocation points they can't be your only jack and will always cost full points. By the same token they probably won't be affected by warjack bonds on epic casters and won't have access to most warjack specific speed buffs in the game (for example boundless charge still applies to them, but Escort, Terminal velocity or pVlad's feat do not).
2. Even if we ignore the free warjack points from casters, 18-20 pts is 40% of your army (50 pts list), that can still get Crippling grasped, Black oiled or Shadowbound (not sure how distruption will work on them) nerfing a massive portion of your force with 1 spell or 2 point model...
3. Out of each faction roster there are just 3-4 casters that work well with them in a list (mainly because they have non-warjack specific buffs/feats and/or can buff their shooting or survivability).
Now, will the standard point size of games go up because of colossals?
No. International competitive play is balanced around 35-50 pts games and it won't change for colossals, just as it didn't for battle engines. In our meta it won't go up unless we collectively decide to go that way, but honestly I think 50 pts is more than enough atm (and I will be using Colossals in some lists at this point level). |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 08, 2012 - 09:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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Now lets take a look at the casters colossals might work well with Faction by faction (btw they are listed in decresing order of synergy with colossals):
Khador:
1. Harkevich: Feat (+3 armor and free charge/slam+free shot) and Broadside (free shot) and Fortune (reroll missed attacks) can get the best mileage out of Conquest's main cannon. Black Ivan is an auto-include with Harkevich, so you're always granted to use up the WJ points on the caster and you still have about half of your points to fill out the list as you wish (probably another jack, some support and mechanics). Unfortunately won't benefit from Escort's speed buff:P
2. pButcher: Feat for 3D6 on blast dmg rolls for Conquest's main gun and Fury (+3 to melee dmg rolls) to squish any heavies that get in melee with it. Unfortunately it doesn't benefit from Full throttle (free charges/power attacks and boosted melee attack rolls), but I rarely cast it anyway...
3. pSorscha: Old school Drop and pop tactics to assassinate casters at range and boundless charge if needs a little speed buff to engage heavy targets. Depending on the range of the colossal's main gun it might substitute the 2 Gun carriages I use in my current pSorscha list.
4. pVlad: It's all about Signs and portents. Take a melee jack (Drago, Kodiak or Spriggan) to use up the WJ points and feat (Conquest doesn't benefit from it, but can get Boundless charge), and add fire support to taste (2 gun carriages, Mortars and minimal support), to be the bane of any infantry heavy army
5. Strakhov: Gets affected by the feat (charge at speed +7''), can get Stealth from Occultation, out of activation shooting with the big cannon (Sentry) and is an ideal target to trigger Overrun (with all those guns it should kill at least 1 model without focus from the caster) and move up Beast 09 that has Superiority on it and 3 focus. In this case Conquest is the main infantry clearing fire support that helps Beast get to the enemy caster and all the rest of the list is made up of melee infantry (Doomreavers and/or Kayazies).
Cygnar:
1. Kara Sloan: Feat grants 1 free shot with main cannon, boosted all ranged attacks, Firegroup gives it +2'' rng and pretty much all her other buffs can work on it as well, making her the best caster for colossals in Cygnar.
2. pHaley: Again the feat grants 1 free shot with the main cannon, sha has Arkane shield and Deadeye if needed, so she can support the Stormwall almost as well as Kara, but has more enemy denial options (Temporal barrier).
3. pStryker: Feat and Arkane shield make the colossal +8 armor (taking it to at least arm 28 with 60ish damage boxes), while early in the game can put Snipe or Blur on it. Not as good as the previous 2, but can make the colossal almost indestructible.
4. Siege: Feat (halve armor of enemies on first dmg roll) can really make thos high power cannons sting (assuming they're pow 16+), while Explosivo (make it's ranged attacks magical) and Mage sight (ignore stealth) help get around some annoying defensive mechanics of the enemy.
5. pCaine: Can put Snipe, Blur or Deadeye on the Stormwall to hunt down enemy heavies, while pCaine uses the feat to clear out the enemy infantry himself. Not brilliant, but could see a resurgence.
Menoth:
1. pSeverius: Can put Defenders ward (+2 def and arm) or Vision (ignore next dmg suffered) on the colossal to make it more survivable or use Death sentence (reroll vs target enemy unit) and Eye of Menoth (+1 to all attack and dmg rolls) to help it's shooting (keep in mind the quire probably doesn't affect colossals). The Blessing of Vengence will be his extra warjack and the ret can be infantry.
2. pKreoss: Like pSorscha it's about the old Drop and pop tactics to help it hit reliably and Defenders ward to make it more resilient.
Menoth is probably the one that gets the least synergy with it's colossal (assuming Quire and Vassals can't affect it), since most of it's casters and support pieces work specifically on warjacks, meaning more often than not they will prefer to field multiple light/heavy jacks (Amon, Reznik, eFeora) rather than sinking 18-20 pts in a non-warjack model.
Cryx:
1. eSkarre: Her feat, Admonition (if enemy gets close you get a free move) and Death ward (+2 arm) make the Kraken harder to kill than it's lowish armor would imply. On the offensive side of things Seas of fate (like Molik boost after seeing roll) and Blackspot (free extra melee/ranged attacks after killing models from target unit) make the Kraken's shooting fairly good and focus efficent.
2. p/eDenegra: All her debuffs make anything in her army that much better, so it's just a question of wether you want 1 big model or several smaller ones. With her Wj points you can take a free arc node, the Kraken, Nyss hunters, Pistol wraiths and some more ranged pieces and run an efficent Cryx gunline style army...
3. pSkarre: Her feat and Dark guidance make the Kraken a melee monster, but again it comes down to the choice of one 20 pts model vs several smaller ones.
The main problem with Cryx is that their infantry is extremely good for it's points and taking out 20 points to make room for a single non warjack model will probably be unacceptable for most competitive cryx lists (except eSkarre where you actually want few very powerful pieces you can protect with the feat), meaning you'll probably never see one on the table.
Mercenaries:
1. Broadside Bart: All of his spells work on the Galleon. Batten down the hatches gives it +3arm, Hot shot gives it boosted ranged damage rolls (that includes blast damage and harpoon damage necessary to trigger Drag effects) and Broadside makes it fire more (since it is a Weapon platform it will be able to fire even when engaged and possibly drag more enemies into combat. Add in master gunner Dougal and his Artillerist special action and the Galleon will be mighty accurate and resilient. He's actually one of the very few casters that might run 2 Galleons in a 50 pts list (I'm assuming the Galleon will be 18 pts), a couple Buccaneers or a Vanguard to spend the WJ points, Wyshnayler and some support and spam Batten down the hatches and Broadside all game long...
2. Damiano: Put Surefoot on Galleon (it's bonus passes to any model within 3'' of the Huge 5'' base), add the +3 Str/Arm feat and laugh at any opponent hoping to dislodge your army from that objective (assuming they don't have eEyryss or Purification). Rocinante takes up the WJ points and the rest of the army is Steelhead spam.
3. p Magnus: Snipe (+4'' range) and Feat (free run after ending activation), but more often you'll see players taking more heavy jacks and troops instead of the colossal.
Retribution:
Not sure yet, since it's playability will depend mainly on it's guns and special abilities. Very likely it will work very well with Ossyan, since his feat and all of his buffs target models rather than warjacks, so Chronomancer (like Molik Kharn boost after roll), Quiken (+2'' Spd and +2 Def), Admonition and Shatterstorm (remove from play + Aoe when killing enemy target models) all work on Hyperion. |
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S'tan
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2012 - 12:00 AM
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Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: bogu za levim jajcem
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Hmm..you killed my dream. I didn't give this as much thought as you but my thoughts went: big awesome warjacks with big guns-->menoth-->Choir, Vassal, Rhoven for True Sight and...
eSeverius: Menoth's ranged assassination caster. Too much stuff immune to knockdown and too low p+s attacks make pKreoss rather poor, while eSevvy can still pull it off. The key is Awareness and about 3 Reckoners. Or some similarly named spell, not 100%. Models in his battlegroup (at least the spell works, if Choir and Vassal don't) get 360 LOS and can shoot through clouds, forests and models. I could fit 2 in 50 pts along with Blessing (7 pts) which should leave me plenty for Vassals and Choir and stuff. How cool would that look on the table? I guess it's still viable with one Colossal, 2 Reckoners and some support.
But yeah. Points won't go up, we just get a bigger toy to play with. They are roughly twice the price of good faction heavies so that's a bit shocking but cool steampunky robots got me in the game in the first place. And some Skorne infantry. ^^
Also for Cygnar, it's a lot more then that. eNemo can move it 3'' and give it some nice buffs (like can't be charged), but I don't think his feat works. pNemo not so sure on the wordings, but he's all about making 1 warjack awesome (move Thunderhead 3 inches, give it 5 focus,...) so it could work. Kraye..again have to check but if the rest of his army opens the charge lane, a colossal charging your caster at double speed with +5'' free charge and boosted all attack rolls must be fun. Oh yeah, and Darius. He likes jacks right? |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2012 - 12:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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Well, I actually went trough the full list of casters for each faction checking off spells/feats that work on Colossals and spells/feats that don't because they're focused specifically at Jacks.
- Kraye: Iron Horse (WJ = Cav), his feat and Full tilt (double speed) are all specifically meant for Warjacks, so only Guided fire works on the Stormwall, meaning you'll never field the colossal ove 2-3 regular jacks.
- eNemo: Similarly to Kraye his feat (free 3 foc to all WJs), Fail safe (arm buff), Lightning shroud (dmg buff) and his 5 foc allocation all work only on regular warjacks, meaning only Energyzer and Polarity shield work on the Stormwall, but again you'll always rather take more jacks to optimize the feat, rather than droppin 19-20 pts in a non-warjack model.
- Darius: as you said he likes warjakcs and his feat, most abilities and spells (Fortify and Full throttle) apply specifically to warjacks, leaving only the Crane ability (but I suspect that won't work on colossals due to Immovable rules) and Jackhammer (make melee attack/focus out of activation). It might be worth it if his feat could repair colossals (since we're certain you can repair them with mechanics they might FAQ it so it works), to use as a literal iron wall with 60 boxes, that if you don't kill in one turn, will just get repaired to full health (Junior can put Arkane shield on it if you want) and possibly use the other jacks and fullthrottle for melee bashing, while the colossal babysits Darius shooting away...
In general it looks like in each faction the best colossal users are prime casters and some of the newer ones (either the one that came with the FoW mk2 books or in Wrath). The current top end casters will keep their lists pretty much as they are now, but some of the less played casters with synergy with Colossals might make it to the 3rd list (heavy armor artillery spam).
The inclusion of Colossals work out pretty well for Khador in a character restricted 3 list format (mainly because Conquest is a beefed up non-character Behemoth), since you can use the Behemoth and kovnik Joe in a combined arms list (eSorscha or pIrusk), Beast 09 and melee characters in a melee focused list (eButcher or Strakhov) and then take Conquest and play a more defensive high armor with artillery approach (Harkevich or pVlad with extra jacks/gun carriages).
However keep in mind that Conquest is pretty much the 'simpleton' of the group, as in he's retarded tough and strong, but has not trick aside from an effect on his guns and maybe a chain attack of sort. All the other colossal will likely have additional tricks and auras that combo really well with certain casters regardless of the spells the caster can put on them...
Consider this a preliminary analysis of 'confirmed' spell combos with the new model type Colossal, for more optimized combos we'll have to wait a bit (with some luck they might give a preview of the rules for Conquest and Stormwall on the next NQ and their models might get released in April or May 2012). |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 13, 2012 - 06:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
Status: Offline
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Ok, a little update on the international wild speculations about colossals:
So far the majority of the forums and podcasts are assuming Colossals aren't warjack models (so pretty much what we discussed this far), but ther have been 1 or 2 podcasts (that supposedly were at the live presentation at Templecon), that claim Colossals indeed count as warjacks with Immovable object (like the character Titan) to prevent the obviously unbalanced push/pull/place tricks (Tow, Crane, Vassals' Enliven, shifting stones teleportation, ecc...).
I still think it is unlikely they will be fully fledget warjacks cause that opens them up to WJ bonds (eFeora and eSorscha the most notable meta breakers), WJ specific buffs (Superiority, Terminal velocity, Full throttle, Full tilt, ecc...) and some feats (Darius, pVlad, eNemo), making them close to OP, so lets take a look at some juicy combos, as if Colossals were actual warjacks:
- eSorscha: Conquest automatically substitutes the Behemoth and gets her bond, being a non-character 'jack' (auto freeze any enemy that ends its activation within 2'' of the huge base and fails to kill it)
- eFeora: Bond the Adjudicator for autofire AoE spam + Quire songs = dead enemy infantry, so all you need to achieve with the rest of the list is scrapping/disabling the enemy's heavies
- eHaley: Bond the Stormwall, Temporal accelerate it, give it Focus and unleash it on the enemy (no TKing it thou:)
- eSkarre: (note this combo works regardless of the Colossals = WJ issue)
Put Black spot on an infantry unit, then charge the Kraken into it. First each of its melee attacks will generate 1 extra attack with any melee or ranged weapon on the model ignoring Rof, meaning you can do these extra attacks with the big 'unicorn' cannon at some heavies or a debuffed/KDed caster (since it is a weapon platform it can shoot while engaged), then use the rapid fire gun on the back ranks of the blak spotted unit and do 1-4 more big cannon free attacks, then it can even shoot the main cannon in the Black spotted unit and use it's last free shot with the big cannon (+ you can buy extra melee attacks with focus and maybe souls), meaning the Kraken with eSkarre can tecnically get from 5 to 10 extra free shots with it's main cannon. If that cannon is pow 15+ this can reliably trash 1-2 heavies + one full infantry unit in one turn.
Depending on the ranged attacks of the Skorne Colossal eHexeris might turn out even better (since he as well has Black spot:)
P.S. On a different note: rumors about Vlad3 (unconfirmed) claim he'll have Line breaker and possibly give it out to Uhlans/cav models (yay now Khador steals abilities from Trolls for a change:) |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 - 10:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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Talking about interesting combos with Colossals (regardless of the fact if they will be Warjack models or not...):
50 pts Broadside Bart 'Iron fleet' (Fourstar syndicate):
Bart -5
- Galleon 18 (or 19)
- Galleon 18 (or 19)
- Wyshnailer 2
Master gunner Dougal 2
Dirty Meg 2
Wrong eye and Snapjaw 9
- Bull snapper 3
The points aren't accurate but you can drop any of the 2 pts solos to fit possible extra points on the Galleons or if they don't get WJ points.
The main trick is Batting down the hatches (+3 arm, steady and -2 Def to all models in the battlegroup) and Spiny growth (+2 arm) from Wrongeye and the Bull snapper on each Galleon for +5 arm (every turn) with 56-58 dmg boxes.
Wishnayler upkeeps Hotshot (all boosted ranged dmg rolls) on one Galleon that get's Artilleryst (+2 to attack rolls and reroll scatter direction and/or distance of all AoEs) from the master gunner every turn and can pop his mini feat for +2'' range early game to soften up enemy heavy hitters. Snapjaw will angage heavies that attack the Galleon's wall, while all the other solos hide behind the 2 huge bases:).
Pretty much just park the Galleons at arm 23+ to contest the scoring zones and use the feat defensively to make it more difficult for the enemy heavies to engage, while you shoot them up and selectively drag them in with the harpoons and beat up together with Snapjaw:) |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 09:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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Ok, finally an insider about colossals (the Stormwall):
Quote:
The production team has done a great job maintaining the detail on the vast number of parts that make up this 140-mm-tall powerhouse of Cygnaran technology. And the Stormwall isn’t just one model; it comes with three small-based Lightning Pod solos it can deploy with its superstructure system for additional offensive support.
I can’t wait to see these things on the battlefield, with guns blazing, fists flying, and arcs of electricity zapping into the Lightning Pods. Also, I have to admit I will take great joy in smashing into a Stormwall with my Cryx force and reducing it to a pile of wreckage.
Did I mention that every colossal model includes a 120-mm triple-layered cardstock wreck marker illustrated by Privateer’s renowned illustrator Andrea Uderzo?
No?
I must be slacking off.
Cheers - Ed
So, unlike battle engines colossals actually leave wreckmarkers (more rough terrain for the joy of Menoth and Cygnar:).
Another interesting detail is the 3 lightning pods per Stormwall (so I'm guessing they'll be 'deployable sudo-stormcallers' that make triangulations and stuff (more infantry hate:) |
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S'tan
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 10:36 AM
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Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: bogu za levim jajcem
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BaffoBeardson_mk2 wrote:
(more rough terrain for the joy of Menoth and Cygnar:)
Very funny over there. =/
To be honest, it doesn't look that majestic when it's not assembled. I suppose it's because proportions are roughly the same as a normal heavy's. They should put like an unassembled plastic kit next to it to show the difference.
Do we know for sure if they are warjacks or not? |
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ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) But at what cost?!
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 11:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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Quote:
Do we know for sure if they are warjacks or not?
No idea 
Hopefully they'll preview some colossal's general rules in April's NQ (from the table of content there is a big article about the design process of the colossals) |
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yowza
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 11:55 AM
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Joined: Mar 08, 2011
Posts: 32
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| can somebody post the concept art for eVyros please? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 01:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Posts: 1941
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... imagine Cloud on a horse, minus the hair.
PP originality strikes again. |
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 01:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
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| I think that concept art wasn't posted on the net, but in one of the last 2 No Quarters. If you check out the retribution forums they might have a scan somewhere. |
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S'tan
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 06:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: bogu za levim jajcem
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| Correct. And who/what the hell is Cloud? |
_________________
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) But at what cost?!
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BaffoBeardson_mk2
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 08:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 481
Status: Offline
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Quote:
Correct. And who/what the hell is Cloud?
Main character from Final fantasy 7 (skinny teenager with giant swords; the guy Kara Sloan stole her Haircut from...); the reference aims at eVyross' Double revolver sword, I'm guessing:)
It would be funnier (closer to FFVII) if eVyross was riding a giant chicken/ostrich. |
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S'tan
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 08:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: bogu za levim jajcem
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Oh. Didn't know FF was your kindda thing.  |
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ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) But at what cost?!
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